<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Some-body there? Understanding Human Nature and who&#8217;s been left out.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://harveysarles.com/2007/03/25/somebody-there-understanding-human-nature-and-whos-been-left-out/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://harveysarles.com/2007/03/25/somebody-there-understanding-human-nature-and-whos-been-left-out/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 09:50:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Harvey</title>
		<link>http://harveysarles.com/2007/03/25/somebody-there-understanding-human-nature-and-whos-been-left-out/comment-page-1/#comment-4223</link>
		<dc:creator>Harvey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harveysarles.com/2007/03/25/somebody-there-understanding-human-nature-and-whos-been-left-out/#comment-4223</guid>
		<description>Jacob,
Thanks for your critique. My response to &quot;how much better can they
be&quot; is: &quot;plenty&quot; - at least for some Down Syndrome persons.

My personal history includes living next door to Irwin - a Down
person - while I was in high school and college. Irwin was over 40,
was clearly a Down person, but also kept a job (was divorced), and
played the piano and flute passably well (an amateur). His mother had
devoted much of her life to him - not all that unusual a story. My
spouse (Janis) - worked with &quot;retarded&quot; kids for several years, and a
close friend (former student), Jerry Timian worked with, examined for
his MA,  and supervised homes for &quot;different&quot; persons for quite a few
years. I spent a couple of years in close contact with Down kids at
the U. of Minnesota, and studied them in various, mostly group contexts.

What is Down&#039;s - in addition to it being a &quot;genetic&quot; syndrome? Their
faces &quot;look funny, different.&quot; How, why, I wanted to know. How did I
recognize, classify so many persons as a particular &quot;kind?&quot; All the
discussions I read and heard about during those years said that there
was something &quot;wrong&quot; with their brains. And, essentially all Down
children were put into perma-care institutions when we were having
kids, several decades ago.

Timian and I noted that their facial musculature is different, some
muscles probably lacking, or not &quot;available&quot; to them to be
&quot;utilized,&quot;moved, etc. Almost all Down kids were said to do better in
swimming pools - having something to do with their muscle lacks or
weakness in ordinary gravity.

What I learned from John Rynders, in encouraging mothers of Down
infants to &quot;hang-in&quot; with their kids, is that many such parents do
not &quot;see&quot; anyone &quot;at home&quot; in their faces. But if you &quot;hang in&quot; for a
few months - other facial muscles will develop, become strong, be
able to move the mouth, and you will &quot;find&quot; the person. Many parents
of Down kids do not see a person, do not look for a smart and
developing kid - and the kids respond, in their turn - and don&#039;t much
develop. A few - following Rynder&#039;s and Horrobin&#039;s ideas, turn out to
be really smart. Lots to do with relationship, idea of m/others that
their kids will &quot;become&quot; real persons - and some become very smart.

So we have apparently taken kids with not well developed facial
muscles, interpret them as &quot;retarded,&quot; and don&#039;t hang-in with them.
They are &quot;different&quot; - we se e that - I try to do mouth-sounds (I
think I&#039;m very good at this!) with most kids I interact with, and the
Down kids are not very good at &quot;imitating&quot; me - so they don&#039;t have or
can&#039;t get to certain muscles. Muscle lack - we interpret as retardation.

How do we &quot;see&quot; anyone - facial appearance - muscles organized, used
- faces are much more complicated and subtle than we have assumed:
and not much studied as we have been &quot;satisfied&quot; with the idea that
some people are intrinsically smarter than others. Rather, the
interactions we have with infants, are much deeper and more important
in who we are and become, than our older ways of characterizing faces.

So: Plenty!

Harvey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob,<br />
Thanks for your critique. My response to &#8220;how much better can they<br />
be&#8221; is: &#8220;plenty&#8221; &#8211; at least for some Down Syndrome persons.</p>
<p>My personal history includes living next door to Irwin &#8211; a Down<br />
person &#8211; while I was in high school and college. Irwin was over 40,<br />
was clearly a Down person, but also kept a job (was divorced), and<br />
played the piano and flute passably well (an amateur). His mother had<br />
devoted much of her life to him &#8211; not all that unusual a story. My<br />
spouse (Janis) &#8211; worked with &#8220;retarded&#8221; kids for several years, and a<br />
close friend (former student), Jerry Timian worked with, examined for<br />
his MA,  and supervised homes for &#8220;different&#8221; persons for quite a few<br />
years. I spent a couple of years in close contact with Down kids at<br />
the U. of Minnesota, and studied them in various, mostly group contexts.</p>
<p>What is Down&#8217;s &#8211; in addition to it being a &#8220;genetic&#8221; syndrome? Their<br />
faces &#8220;look funny, different.&#8221; How, why, I wanted to know. How did I<br />
recognize, classify so many persons as a particular &#8220;kind?&#8221; All the<br />
discussions I read and heard about during those years said that there<br />
was something &#8220;wrong&#8221; with their brains. And, essentially all Down<br />
children were put into perma-care institutions when we were having<br />
kids, several decades ago.</p>
<p>Timian and I noted that their facial musculature is different, some<br />
muscles probably lacking, or not &#8220;available&#8221; to them to be<br />
&#8220;utilized,&#8221;moved, etc. Almost all Down kids were said to do better in<br />
swimming pools &#8211; having something to do with their muscle lacks or<br />
weakness in ordinary gravity.</p>
<p>What I learned from John Rynders, in encouraging mothers of Down<br />
infants to &#8220;hang-in&#8221; with their kids, is that many such parents do<br />
not &#8220;see&#8221; anyone &#8220;at home&#8221; in their faces. But if you &#8220;hang in&#8221; for a<br />
few months &#8211; other facial muscles will develop, become strong, be<br />
able to move the mouth, and you will &#8220;find&#8221; the person. Many parents<br />
of Down kids do not see a person, do not look for a smart and<br />
developing kid &#8211; and the kids respond, in their turn &#8211; and don&#8217;t much<br />
develop. A few &#8211; following Rynder&#8217;s and Horrobin&#8217;s ideas, turn out to<br />
be really smart. Lots to do with relationship, idea of m/others that<br />
their kids will &#8220;become&#8221; real persons &#8211; and some become very smart.</p>
<p>So we have apparently taken kids with not well developed facial<br />
muscles, interpret them as &#8220;retarded,&#8221; and don&#8217;t hang-in with them.<br />
They are &#8220;different&#8221; &#8211; we se e that &#8211; I try to do mouth-sounds (I<br />
think I&#8217;m very good at this!) with most kids I interact with, and the<br />
Down kids are not very good at &#8220;imitating&#8221; me &#8211; so they don&#8217;t have or<br />
can&#8217;t get to certain muscles. Muscle lack &#8211; we interpret as retardation.</p>
<p>How do we &#8220;see&#8221; anyone &#8211; facial appearance &#8211; muscles organized, used<br />
- faces are much more complicated and subtle than we have assumed:<br />
and not much studied as we have been &#8220;satisfied&#8221; with the idea that<br />
some people are intrinsically smarter than others. Rather, the<br />
interactions we have with infants, are much deeper and more important<br />
in who we are and become, than our older ways of characterizing faces.</p>
<p>So: Plenty!</p>
<p>Harvey</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jacob Freeze</title>
		<link>http://harveysarles.com/2007/03/25/somebody-there-understanding-human-nature-and-whos-been-left-out/comment-page-1/#comment-4215</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Freeze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://harveysarles.com/2007/03/25/somebody-there-understanding-human-nature-and-whos-been-left-out/#comment-4215</guid>
		<description>You reminded of the famous blogger Be&#039;rube&#039; playing golf with his Down Syndrome child.  Be&#039;rube&#039;s blogs on this subject have an aura of &quot;Mr. Wonderful and Mr. Wonderful&#039;s wonderful Down Syndrome child.&quot; For example, at http://pandagon.net/2007/06/03/the-further-adventures-of-jamie/ there&#039;s a good story, but it&#039;s punctuated with a few artificial moments. &quot;He’s a kind of amazing kid, that Jamie.&quot; This is a little too wonderful for me, but all credit to Be&#039;rube&#039; for staying engaged, and if he can keep himself going by creating an ideal image of himself and putting it across to thousands of readers, more power to him.

Question: Obviously these kids are going to do better with engaged parents making pleasant faces at them, but how much better can they be? Maybe it isn&#039;t important, or can&#039;t be quantified, or maybe there&#039;s bad news about the best case scenario that would make it harder for parents to make the improvements they can actually make. I don&#039;t know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You reminded of the famous blogger Be&#8217;rube&#8217; playing golf with his Down Syndrome child.  Be&#8217;rube&#8217;s blogs on this subject have an aura of &#8220;Mr. Wonderful and Mr. Wonderful&#8217;s wonderful Down Syndrome child.&#8221; For example, at <a href="http://pandagon.net/2007/06/03/the-further-adventures-of-jamie/" rel="nofollow">http://pandagon.net/2007/06/03/the-further-adventures-of-jamie/</a> there&#8217;s a good story, but it&#8217;s punctuated with a few artificial moments. &#8220;He’s a kind of amazing kid, that Jamie.&#8221; This is a little too wonderful for me, but all credit to Be&#8217;rube&#8217; for staying engaged, and if he can keep himself going by creating an ideal image of himself and putting it across to thousands of readers, more power to him.</p>
<p>Question: Obviously these kids are going to do better with engaged parents making pleasant faces at them, but how much better can they be? Maybe it isn&#8217;t important, or can&#8217;t be quantified, or maybe there&#8217;s bad news about the best case scenario that would make it harder for parents to make the improvements they can actually make. I don&#8217;t know.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

